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REVIEWS
(AS OF MARCH 2019)
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Doesn't Recommend
20 days ago
No need for me to post another review here. It's obvious that LCLC and the other ANTM churches have caused a lot of people a lot of pain. Unfortunately, reviews get lost and replaced as new ones are posted, so a comprehensive informational website has been developed that reports on the ANTM, their pastors, their doctrines and their practices. Check out: antmquestions(dot)com
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Doesn't Recommend
27 days ago
Lakeview Christian Life Church is a cult. They teach and practice severe shunning of ex-members, although they refer to this disturbing practice as "disfellowship" instead. The pastors and most of the congregation are bad people. Stay away and be wary of them.
Lost. The members of Lakeview Christian Life Church are lost. The trouble is, when these same people leave, they end up wandering aimlessly around in the desert, still chasing after mirages. They are still lost and they do not even realize it.
I began a blogging a little over a year ago. One review of my site describes it as:
Raw feelings about dealing with life after Lakeview.
I am not sure I quite agree with that review and I think a better description would be:
Raw truth, someone finally laying it straight instead of continuing a fruitless journey in the desert.
I can appreciate that many ex-Lakers will not agree with my perspective, but remember that many people also do not like to hear truth.
Check out my recent blogs to read more and comment if you like. Search for "walkingonthelake" or Lakeview Christian Life Church @ the site wordpress.
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Doesn't Recommend
1 month ago
Remember when Norman released a statement to the press that Lakeview did not shun? Can we call that for what it is: a lie. The pastor of Lakeview lies. Members were forced to meet and told to cut off their families outside the church. Ex members are cut off, receiving phone calls, emails, and letters. If Norman was truly a man of god, he would retract his statement. He is a hypocrite
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Doesn't Recommend
1 month ago
I'm curious current Lakers. Is it still your personal choice to disfellowship your family? From what I hear, church leadership had to put it in writing that they would not associate with those who have left. Care to fact check me? I understand that this is a recent development.
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Doesn't Recommend
9 months ago
To those in this group, if I might say it bluntly: wake up. Time and loved ones are slipping away. Let me ask you a question: If you have a loved one who you no longer communicate with because of a difference in beliefs, would that man or woman you so quickly have set aside die in your place? Would they give their own life that you might live? Now the next question, would your leader do the same? It is a stark question but nonetheless one that demands an answer. Jesus laid down His life for us, our Mother and Father and our spouse would as well but I have my doubts anybody else would especially a leaders of this group. I would gladly and without hesitation die for my daughters and my son, their spouses and their children. From the day they turned aside from my wife and I, there is not a day we do not long for them and wait patiently and hopefully for their return. We believe in a sovereign God and we believe in them as well. We saw and still bear witness to what was forged in them by us. Love never fails only grows stronger and in its testing it is proven and so called genuine and pure this is the key attribute that reflects the Savior. I and my wife have been profoundly changed by the darkness and pain we have experienced but we are the better for it. We hope to one day see our reflection in the eyes of our children because we have no doubt that one day it will happen, in this world or the next it is only a matter of time.
Friend, if in your heart you have conflicting thoughts and feelings towards those you have shunned and disposed from your life, it may not be the enemy of your souls at all, it may be the Hand of the Almighty moving you along to a conclusion, redemption and into His perfect will. Do not be afraid to stand and face the storm, the dungeon or the lash; the fact is there are more people than you know that will be there to support your decision to no longer be a part of the madness; they are ready and at the door and all is needed is a word uttered. These others that perhaps you have excluded from your life for reasons that may be clear to you or at least you can state why are still there, they will always be there to come to your support and stand with you in your decision. Why? Because it is all about something that is truly godly, it is about love:
Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrongsuffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails
Was this review Helpful? Yes (69)
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Doesn't Recommend
over a year ago
I grew up in this school and church.I went there for kindergarden and went to school there from 6th through 12th grade.This church if you want to call it a church should not exist.They mishandle money people give for there own personal gain such as there own personal vacation instead of ministry reasons and also they break up lots of familys.I know people that I went to this church with that there mom,dad,sisters have broken ties with each other because one family member left the church.They teach people to shun people who leave the church,even if it is your own family.Can you imagine if your mom,dad,sister,brother would never would talk to you again.This not godly at all.I have met people at bars that treat you better than this cult.It is not a church at all.Do not consider attending this church or becoming a member.
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Doesn't Recommend
over a year ago
Lakeview is bad. There's plenty of facts out there to prove this. If you choose to ignore the truth at this point, that's your choice, that's your right and really that is fine. That's your freedom of religion. I do wish you'd stop shunning and treating people the way you do because that is wrong, but overall it is your choice and it is your right to be part of Lakeview.
Some on the outside like to present this review site as a support group. Some want to present those on the outside (Ex-Lakers) as a unified front. I can tell you we don't always agree. And that's perfectly ok. I've encountered plenty on the outside and I'm not sure you've really changed from who you were on the inside. After all, there was something about you originally that drew you to Lakeview to begin with or allowed you to buy into it for so long. Are you still that same person? Doe you even realize it if you are? Many still play the same control games, the same authority games. That was never me. It's so easy to fall back into what you know, what you're comfortable with.
Perhaps you're reading this on the inside and you want to get out. Just know you can come out and don't have to embrace all the Ex-Lakers either. You can come out and write your own story. You can just come out and just be you. You can come out and be free.
Prior post: "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater."
When I left Lakeview over 16 years ago, this statement inspired me to try my darn-dest on the outside. To work hard in both my personal life and spiritual life. To finally find Christ since I never found Him inside Lakeview, although I tried hard.
Sixteen years later and I am finally learning something different: perhaps it makes sense to throw the baby out with the bathwater, too. For so many years, I thought that I had to chase that religious, Christian experience. But the more I've lived, the more I've experienced, I find that religious people are bad. Religion is bad. It rarely brings out the best in people. According to a recent study performed by 7 universities around the world, "Children from religious families are less kind and more punitive than those from non-religious households, according to a new study...religious belief is a negative influence on children's altruism." Although, interestingly, the study also found that the parents of these same religious rascals view them as being 'more empathetic'. They didn't single out any religion in this study, but rather it included kids from Christian, Muslim and non-religious backgrounds.
Lakeview represents the extreme, a blatantly harmful religious experience at the far end of the altruism-lacking, religious experience mentioned above. The Lakeview experience is all about raising up oneself and bringing down others. But are any of the other Christian flavors any better?
On the outside, I see many ex-Lakers still as the same far-right, racist, pro-life fearmongers they were on the inside. In many ways, you may be no better than those at Lakeview Christian Life Church. I think many of the older generation are set in their ways, and I think I can live with that. But to the younger generations, maybe it is time to throw the baby out, too.
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Doesn't Recommend
over a year ago
Acts, welcome Home to reality. I cannot tell by your last post how deeply you were effected by Lakeview. Some of us were so deeply wounded by NJ and his family and elders. It has taken years to recover. I hope you are doing well. I will be praying for you. Lastly share your story with us someday. We are like a support group on this sight. Our stories told help validate what happened to us. It’s kind of like all these women speaking out against men of power intimidated women. These brave women joined together and are finally speaking out against abuse. I hope someday we will have justice for what this church did to us and our families.
When I went to this church it was called South Hills Christian Center. So I guess I'm not a laker. I was surprised when they changed the name. I started to attend in late 70s. I believe that my own issues made me susceptible to the spiritual deception and false doctrine being taught there. The pastors personality made it seem so right for me at the time. I have taken responsibility for the part I played by recognizing what my own issues were at the time. As time went on though the brainwashing made it hard to leave. If you are out then praise God that you have your freedom again. No matter how screwed up this place made me I'm way better off in the outside then if I was still trapped on the inside.
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over a year ago
"Give Grace a Try" -- a good screen name and better advice. Couldn't help but notice that within three sentences you were pushing for an apology from "Acts," almost as if you believe there are a series of requirements to properly join life on the outside. Nah, nuts to that. First we don't know if Acts has or will apologize to those that, maybe they need to. All in good time. Second, probably their life is in turmoil, to wake up without friends, family, the association that may even be all they've ever known? Heck I'm glad they had the courage and honesty to come on here at all. Let's not add to the Law and stipulate a certain form and content of this recantation.
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over a year ago
Acts 19:1-6, are you able to explain what you mean by the "whole story?" I'm just curious.
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over a year ago
I would like to retract my statements made in defense of the church's practice. I do not wish to bash the church, but I retract my defenses of it, as I have left the church and now understand the whole story.
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over a year ago
I have followed this blog for a while. I attended SHHS in the 70's, like many other young persons seeking for their spiritual identity, The charismatic movement was sweeping through Pittsburgh and SHHS was labelled a "charismatic church" in the Yellow Pages. Of course, I visited and stayed for awhile.
In the beginning, I was struck by the friendliness (almost uber-friendliness) of the members, enjoyed the uptempo music and marveled at what I was told were the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. But I noted something else: that was the absence of focus on Holy Scripture in its entirety. The "Word" from the pulpit almost focused on bits of Scripture that reinforced the pastor's insistence on how the membership should live--what to wear; what TV shows were to be avoided; with what people to fellowship with or not even when the latter group included family members. I had none in the group so leaving was not that traumatic altho I missed members who I thought were friends and I have to fill in the large amounts of time I used to spend on SHHS activities/services/work parties, etc.
When I returned to a church body that used the traditional liturgy--Scripture readings, hymns and sermon teachings that united the Old and New Testaments each day, I realized that God's undivided, eternal Word is the only necessary guide to belief and behavior. Yesterday, the liturgy focused on the Lordship of Jesus. Last week, it was Forgiveness. The pastor and music minister enabled the congregation to worship Him, in the unity of the Father and Holy Spirit. I'd encourage members of LCLC to begin to study Scripture in an organized manner following the Divine Liturgy that takes the reader through the whole body of Scripture throughout the Christian year. I pray for the leaders and members at LCLC to have the courage to look outside the man made boundaries of that place.
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over a year ago
Hi, "Give Grace a Try" - Wow, thanks. You're right. Yes, the leaders have been at the forefront. I personally stayed clear of being part of the problem (at one of the associated churches), because of being a loner type. I saw some of what was happening, and kept praying. I left when it became very severe & untenable. I was so flattened by the abuse, that it's taken me a long time to even begin to recover - very much hurt by the words of the leaders, who vilified me. I still have flash-backs. In the church, I had no one to talk to, because any complaint automatically goes to the leadership. Jesus alone gave me comfort. My spouse was sold into the belief system, and instantly divorced me when I left, no surprise. It took me years to gather the courage to leave. I'm still working through the pain. I've been seeing professional counselors, taking medicine, and God has been healing me piece by piece.
Prior Post:
Please don't visit this church, or associated churches. Families have been damaged for four decades, because of spiritual abuse. Members who disagree with the leaders are abused emotionally, and are usually removed. Leaders assume more power than God has given them. They come between spouses, and between parents & children. If someone leaves the church, they lose all their friends left within. I left this church when they got in the way of Jesus from being Lord. The leaders think they share in the lordship of Christ over members, which is idolatry.
Now, I have a healthy church where members are built up, and it is an atmosphere of honor & respect. Now I can see Jesus ever more clearly, and enjoy His people. Christianity has become sweet again.
.... What is spiritual abuse? The complete book by Ron Enroth entitled "Churches That Abuse" is here www.ccel.us/churches.toc.html
It describes abusive churches as: misusing spiritual authority, using manipulation & control (fear, guilt, & threats), elitist (seeing themselves as special), fostering rigidity, discouraging questions & dissent, and making leaving painful.
Also, look at the book, "Recovering from Churches That Abuse" www.ccel.us/churchesrec.toc.html
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Doesn't Recommend
over a year ago
All of these reviews are true: the good, the bad and the ugly. Whether written by a current member who is 'smitten' by the Jameses, the 'non-partisan', the '180-person', the 'on-the-fence person' or the straight 'out-of-line person'. Each story is true. Now I don't mean to say true in the sense that each one represents actual facts, but each is true in the feeling it conveys.
You see, each of us is born with this awful iniquity called 'selfishness', so by default each review written here represents our own individual perspective. It's very difficult for us to step outside of our own experience considering the experience of another, but I will try:
'Smitten' - Chances are you always bought into the James' message easily. You never challenge them and just go with the status quo. You put on a good face every Sunday, sign up for as many ministries as you can. When you see the Jameses, you greet them enthusiastically. In return, they greet you with kind words. Personally, you've only ever experienced good interactions with the Jameses. You are "All In".
'Non-partisan' - This person is on the inside, but struggles to pick a side or rather bounces back and forth. They know there is wrong being done within the Lake, sometimes they openly admit the leadership is wrong behind closed doors. But they certainly don't stand up to the Jameses out of fear they might lose their eternal inheritance. Maybe they try to talk to their kids on the outside today and then tomorrow they don't. Maybe today they think about leaving and tomorrow they're as loyal to the cause as ever. And of course, this person would never post something on here one way or the other. Pathetic.
'The 180' - Likely a first generation Laker(or a devout second or third), there was a time you adored the Jameses. You even called them "Mom" and "Dad". (How cute?) You acted the way they did. You treated others the way they did. For whatever reason, you're gone now. But now that you're out, you only have negative things to say about them. You feel duped, but you're not willing to look at the part YOU played in this disaster. Did you ever look at who YOU used to be? Did you ever consider how YOU treated the young people being raised inside? Maybe YOU still subscribe to the same garbage, just at a different dump.
'On the fence' - Likely a second or third generation Laker, you were raised here. Chances are you fell into the 'smitten' category at one point in your faith, but over time you became more in tune with the Jameses treatment of others. Yet you still cling to those fond memories of them, feeling sorry for them, but yet still seeing good in them. After all, they were always generous and kind to you, but maybe you didn't like how they treated others, so you finally left or used that as an excuse to leave. When you left, you showed them their due respect and left on good terms. You may often say that ongoing relationships with those inside depend on HOW you left. In doing so, you allow the James legacy to endure.
'Out of line' - The Jameses hated you. In fact, most of their followers hated you. The entire time you were there, they hated you. Now that you're out, they hate you. For whatever reason, no matter what you did, no matter how hard you tried, it was never enough. In school, you were branded as the "bad kid". A "rebel". When a James met with you at a counseling session, they would leverage the opportunity, insulting you. Tearing you down. Breaking you. They never showed love toward you. Only an enduring hatred. Anger. It's no surprise you left. It's almost as if they were trying to push you out the door. It never had anything to do with "HOW" you left. No one remembers the story of "HOW" you left anyway. You've been branded.
I am proud to say I fall in the last category, which provides me the clarity to see the other perspectives mentioned above. A close second are the 'on the fencers' who almost get it, but not quite. Which of these are YOU?
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Doesn't Recommend
over a year ago
You all are wasting your breathes (or typing) trying to get this abuser to engage in any more conversation. He is sitting there like a snake in the grass trying to get you all to play into his smug game. You all will do much better to bring this darkness to light by telling YOUR stories.
BETTER YET...who is this guy?? He wants to out other people's names.
And if LCLC is still crying because people are calling them a cult - here is a thought - then stop being one! Stop doing things that cults do! How about that??
Bottom line...no, I don't recommend LCLC, if you are on the fence about this place, do your own research. There are many online articles about the horrors of this place. It speaks for itself.
If you are trying to get out of LCLC - there are many people out there willing to help you NOW. WE LOVE YOU, MISS YOU AND WANT TO HELP.
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Recommends
over a year ago
These conversations inevitably end up resulting in the same arguments used by both sides over and over again, and both sides saying they are standing on principle. I'll briefly address your homosexual witnessing question. I would witness to them first about the love of Christ and what He has done for us to take away our sin. Then in that same conversation I would outline what that sin is (including homosexuality), along with the caveat that all sin is the same before God and all have sinned and fallen short of His glory (side note: Paul says that he was a crafty fellow and took believers in by deceit. He also rejoices that the gospel is spread out of spite. Just interesting to note). I encourage all of you, every one, to go to the Lake Effect blog. We're about to engage in a discussion on baptism in Jesus name that I think is pivotal. Let's use this as a test. Only using the scriptures, let's see if the scriptures support the Trinitarian formula, or Jesus name. Let's also look at whether baptism has power or not. Really this belief is what separates us from the rest of the "charismatic denominations". Therefore, if we are right on this, our remnant claim holds a real amount of validity. We would be the only church you or I know of that believes in baptism in Jesus Name, the trinity, and baptism of the Holy Spirit with evidence of tongues. If I'm right about baptism, I encourage all of you to reconsider why you left in the first place and consider that we really may be God's remnant. If you're right about baptism, I'll accept your claim that we're a cult. Surely you all together should be able to convince me. I mean you have John Rankin, a trained minister, Kevin Flynn a former pastor who has done extensive research on our doctrines, and all of you, who I'm sure have had to reconcile these things in your minds. I'm just one member, I'm not a part of the authority, I'm not a Bible scholar, I don't have formal seminary training. This should be a piece of cake, if we're just looking at things naturally, your combined knowledge should be more than enough to prove to me the "truth". Or I'm right, God's Spirit is with us and the wisdom of man will be proven to be foolishness to God. Let's find out. I will honestly give your points a fair, fresh look, and I ask you'll do the same with mine.
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Recommends
over a year ago
I appreciate your response, however we just don't see eye to eye on this. I do not worry that we are considered a cult, that is not something that concerns me, what concerns me is that by labeling us a cult you will prevent others from coming and bring judgment upon yourselves, as well as causing someone to miss out on what the Lord has for them. I think former members just assume all of us think like you do. Well, we don't, that's why we're still here. We don't constantly question or wonder, we feel this is where God has us. As far as your suggestion,it just isn't going to work. You say if you ever called us a cult we could disfellowship you, that's not even something we are worried about. The main concern is your rebellion against God's authority in your life, until you reconcile with His authority, a reunion cannot happen. You have all rebelled like Korah, God will not bless that rebellion. Remember to obey is better than sacrifice. Even if you think you're doing the right thing by "sacrificing" and leaving Lakeview, God would rather you obey and submit to His authority. God will always bless you if you do, even if the authority is wrong (just look how David respected Saul). So I leave the ball in your court former members, go to the authority, make things right, and return. Whether that authority be a parent or Pastor James, you must have the approval of the shepherd before you can graze with his sheep. A good shepherd won't let a wolf in sheep's clothing be in contact with his sheep. So yeah, the invitation is always open to return, or at least to reconcile. But the impetus must be on your part. You are the ones who left, you must make it right. The prodigal returned, the father did not seek him out. I hope this motivates some of you to return, it may not tickle the ears of men but it's the truth.
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Recommends
over a year ago
You twist my words. I am comfortable where I am, I am confident that this place is a house of God. The only reason I've posted is to maybe bring some of you back in. But it seems this is not what you want. I've never been uncomfortable with the idea that people think we're a cult. For me it proves that man is against us, but God is for us. Have a good life.
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Recommends
over a year ago
Look how much hypocrisy is on this blog. You attack us for not being loving or kind, yet on this blog I see so much malice and hatred that it's hard to read. If you truly left for good reasons and were delivered by God, you would be bearing fruits of the Spirit, not malice and deceit. As for me, I still love all of you, I want you to return, or to make things right. But none of you are trying to do that, so I must stand on my principles. We must stand on our principles. Maybe a good idea for a restoration of fellowship would be to stop calling us a cult and apologize, just an idea. You say that we will not restore contact with you if you try to return or try to make things right, but test us on this. If you return in a repentant Spirit, even if you don't wish to become a member again, there is potential for restoration. If your desire is for families to be reunited start making steps to make this possible, don't further alienate us.
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Recommends
over a year ago
Jesus says to count the cost before you start building, and obviously you former members did not count this cost. It is not that we would not like to fellowship former members, it is that they attack our church and our doctrine, and we don't want to be constantly exposed to that. If former members stopped doing that, there could be potential for restoration.
Recommends
Acts 19:1- 6.
over a year ago
Ok I thought I'd write a review that explains what Lakeview actually is instead of defending against Lakeview's attackers. Lakeview is a non-denominational church that follows the Word of God. We believe in the necessity of repentance, baptism in Jesus Name, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit in order to be born again and enter the Kingdom of God, and we get this from John 3 "you must be born of the water and the spirit to enter the Kingdom of Heaven". We believe that repentance saves from hell and gets you into heaven, but in order to enter God's kingdom, which is separate, you must be born again. In order to receive the Holy Spirit one must manifest praising or praying in tongues or a gift of the Spirit. Tongues will not be denied to any believer who seeks His Spirit, so that is almost always the outward sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. As far as baptism goes, we use Jesus's Name over the trinitarian formula because the believers in the book of Acts used Jesus name, and there is power in His name. We do believe in the Trinity, however we do not use the trinitarian formula in baptism because Jesus says the name of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, His name being Jesus. We believe the spiritual gifts laid out in 1 Corinthians 12 are available to us today and we believe in the five-fold ministry of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.
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Recommends
Acts 19:1- 6.
over a year ago
Oh, one clarifying point, the Samarian believers were the ones who were baptized and didn't receive the Spirit immediately. Cornelius and his house received the Spirit first. I switched those two accounts in my mind. Again I welcome any of your questions on the lake effect blog, though I encourage you to look at my responses, it may answer some of your questions. You may not like my answers, but I'm willing to give them, and I firmly believe in our doctrine and believe it can be supported by scripture. I don't blindly follow our doctrine, that's foolishness, I've become convinced of these things through the Lord Himself. And bless our leadership for being willing to continue to preach these precious truths when faced with this adversity.
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Acts 19: 1-6.
over a year ago
John R. if you want to see my responses to a lot of these things I suggest you go to "the lake effect mylongjourneybacktofaith" blog. What we know about the Kingdom of God, is that in order to see it we must be born again, and in order to be born again we must be born of the water and the Spirit. My belief is that we must be water baptized and must receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit to enter His Kingdom; we must be water baptized in the name of Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit through the evidence of speaking in tongues. We see this very clearly throughout the book of Acts, the Apostles baptized in the name of Jesus, and this was usually accompanied with receiving the Holy Spirit soon after. Except in Samaria, where they received the Holy Spirit before, and the account in Acts 19:1-6 where they received the Holy Spirit long after they believed and were baptized. For more details on these things, again, I suggest you look at my various posts in the lake effect blog.
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John R.
over a year ago
Interesting post by Acts 19:1-6 T. Three matters good friend:
1) In using Acts 19:1-6 as your identity, can you tell me the relationship between the biblical story line (the only fully true story ever told) and formal doctrine? Does doctrine (a word meaning "teaching") flow out of the story, or does doctrine modify the story?
2) My story of shunning in 1978 is below. Ask the older or younger Norman if anything here is untrue. My wife and I met with the older Norman some weeks later, and he said he had nothing against us, only those with whom we "associated" in leaving. I defended those friends and their honest questions. He invited us back, and we said no thank you. He said we were always welcome. But when I wanted to meet with him just to chat, when in town in 1989, Norman the younger said his father was unable (for some reason). And when I tried again in 1998 or 1999, no response.
3) From the Hebrew Bible and New Testament, can you give me a succinct overview of what "the kingdom of God" means? As well, what does "inheritance" mean?
Thank you.
[prior post]:
I pray for the mercy and healing power of the Lord Jesus to flood the souls of all who have been so deeply violated by the masters in Normantown.
And for you masters and sub-masters, I pray your hearts are not so barnacled that you can still choose to seek forgiveness and mercy. Otherwise you are liable to appear naked, frail and alone on that Day, being more at home in the self-chosen disfellowshipped Abyss ...
[prior post]:
Len S. says the church does not order shunning. Au contraire mon frere. Lenny was our upstairs neighbor in a two-family house in Mount Lebanon, January, 1977 through June, 1978.
He is one person I anonymously referenced in my January, 2014 article and blog post on Normantown. Lenny and his wife Colleen immediately shunned us when we left, yet he broke pace for a moment when I had two days off in the middle of that week. He approached me outside the house and asked if I had lost my job. For of course, that would be congruent with my leaving the "Way" of Norman.
When I told him no, that I was moving to a new and better paying job (a process already in the works) and had a two-day interlude, he was crestfallen.
The fourteen of us who left Normantown did so on Tuesday evening, January 10, 1978. On Wednesday night, January 11, Norman called an emergency meeting of the whole church to denounce us, and he explicitly ordered that we all be shunned, aka "disfellowshipped."
Now that was their problem, not mine. I was a free man; those who shunned us and others only built their own self-occupied prisons.
Lenny and Colleen: May the Lord Jesus bless you immeasurably in his goodness! Far beyond what you can conceive, and also bring true human reconciliation with your son (e.g. Malachi 4:6). The love of God and neighbor -- even our enemies -- is the apex of what Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount. Do your "beliefs" trump love?
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Recommends
Acts 19:1-6 T.
over a year ago
This place is awesome. God's presence is powerful at Lakeview and in all the churches in the ANTM. I love the church and its people. And as for the people who have written negative posts, they are former members who have fallen away from the truth and they now try to hinder us. We do not practice shunning at Lakeview, those who leave excommunicate themselves, and we simply don't want to be exposed to a constant barrage of criticism for what we believe. Shunning has never been ordered by the leadership to my knowledge, the prospect of a future restoration has always been acknowledged, and we would be thrilled if some prodigals did return. Everybody's circumstance of leaving the church is different, and I can't speak to the specifics all of them, but in many if not all cases they left because they were offended by the authority, which allowed deception to set in. I pray that the Holy Spirit will cut through that deception so that you may return. But remember, the prodigal returned to the father, the father did not seek out the prodigal. And let me be abundantly clear I don't think you're going to hell because you left this church, you just won't inherit the Kingdom of God. I encourage you to look at "the lake effect: mylongjourneybacktofaith" in part 6 washingtonpike and I have a good dialogue going. I would ask any former members to look at my posts there to answer any other questions they have regarding the specifics of what you call "shunning" and a lot of other things.
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Lucky 1.
over a year ago
In 1000 years this will all be dust. We will all be long forgotten, all our marks and impressions will be wiped clean by the unforgiving hand of time. This building, this red stone edifice to small men with smaller minds will most likely be dust as well. I like to think that maybe some small rock might remain. A dusting wisp of a memory of what was once here. That 1000 years ago a man controlled other men with fear and opression in the name of a god no one can remember. Like Ozymandias, some faded relic of one man's arrogance might remain. "We are the few and only true. Look not upon the Word but listen to mine." One man's words from 1000 years ago serve now only as a mocking reminder to never follow blindly the man who says "God is only here and I am his apostle".......
What I am trying to say is this. There is no great work here, no legacy, no legend. This place will never be remembered with quiet sighs and wistful smiles. Those that survive see themselves as awake for the first time. Finally free in the sun and air. Survivors of a scarring darkness.
The light will never shine here when it is hidden so well behind those cold red walls....If it was ever there
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over a year ago
Pray for these lost people.....they have been following one man Norman James for over 40 years. Questioning or disobeying him is not tolerated. There are many broken shunned lives in their wake......I know as I was one of them from the 1970's. The gentle love of Jesus through His people and His word nursed me back to restful health in the course of time.....Praise His Holy Name!
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Doesn't Recommend
Not_Curse D.
over a year ago
Hey Shane,
I'm really glad you posted on here and I appreciate your honesty and bravery. I also appreciate that you followed your heart/instincts/spirit in leaving this church, and staying out.
I just want to share one thing with you about everything you said. You mention that you've had a lot of bad things happen since you left Lakeview that you attribute to the judging hand of God. I don't want to tell you about that because that's between you and Him.
But what I do want to tell you is that bad things happen in *everyone's* life and sometimes, yes, it's because of our poor choices, and a lot of times, they just happen for no reason whatsoever. People get sick because they smoked for 50 years, and sometimes they get sick for no reason at all. That's just the nature of life.
It's very difficult to look at the patterns our lives make and draw good conclusions. There's a thing called "Confirmation Bias" which is basically that thing where we say we "always get a red light" at a certain intersection--humans are terrible at recognizing patterns and collecting data. It's really hard to look at our OWN lives and see a pattern until we are many, many years down the road. And I would argue that it's very unwise and extremely uncool to do the same thing to someone else.
This is one of the areas I fault Lakeview. How dare they look at your life or mine and decide that because of what's happening to us we are following God or not? That's wrong, and moreover, the Bible clearly tells us not to do that.
So what I would tell you Shane is that your faith in God is between you and Him alone. He speaks to us in many ways. But I would encourage you and say that bad things happening to you--sometimes they're just bad things. God rains, it says, on the just and the unjust.
Please be free of the guilt and the condemnation and the heaviness that you may have felt since leaving Lakeview. This is not what Jesus wants for you. This is why he said, "my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Come to me, all who are heavy-laden. I will give you rest."
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Shane E.
over a year ago
I may or may not have posted with this forum before. But I feel compelled to speak from the perspective of one who has left Lakeview. I will admit that shortly before I stopped attending, I felt a spirit of heaviness and even oppression upon me. Something was wrong and I couldn't quite put my finger on it. Long story short, I felt that I was living a double life. I know that I was not pleasing God or my parents with some of my actions. Eventually, I convinced myself that it was better for me to pull myself out than continue "going through the motions" and make things worse. Seven years later and I have been through a lot, much of which I believe is God's justice being carried out on me. In spite of all that, I refuse to subscribe to the "cult" theory, because I simply don't believe it. Stop holding your breath for the day when this church will crumble, because it would have happened by now.
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Doesn't Recommend
Spring R.
over a year ago
I was a member of this church and went to school there from K-8. I think it's brave that Marni was willing to go on television and talk about her experience, and I'm glad that others are sharing their experiences here. A lot of damage has been done and I think it's healthy to open up and let others know about our experiences with this place. I personally experienced the shunning that is talked about here, and will share that story.
I view my time at both the school and church as a source of frustration and trauma. My mom wanted me to go to a Christian church and a private school with good intentions. As my experiences built up over the years I was increasingly coming home, day after day, frustrated and angry; just completely stressed out. There was always something going on. Ten dollar fines in the form of "yellow slips" were handed out individually for each class that you didn't do homework on any given day, and the homework load was enormous. Ten dollar fines were also handed for an incomplete uniform, e.g. socks were the wrong color, no tie, hair below top of ears, etc. It was a total racket. And you could imagine the stress and pressures this placed on students and their parents.
There was always some drama going on where kids would be divided up or spoken to in groups, and it was always a giant guilt trip instead of a display of any sort of wisdom or compassion. A lot of psychological tactics were used to divide and break kids down until they would volunteer themselves for punishment. There was a heavy oppressive feeling to being there, and it wore on me. [Note that I don't mean to blame any of the teachers there, who were paid very little and probably taught in school out of kindness, or possibly servitude]
I remember once walking up to an ATM in the mall and making a few silly "bleep, bleep, bloop" sound effects while pretending to use the ATM for a few seconds and then walked on. It was just an impromptu, tongue-in-cheek, harmless thing to do. The next day of school, I was called in to the principals office and told that I was seen misbehaving in front of an ATM at the mall, and I was forced to defend something that I had no business being talked to about. I don't remember if I was punished or just given a firm talking to, but the point is that their control would reach so far beyond school, they really tried to gain control of your life.
Even after coming home, and pleading to my mother with tears in my eyes to put me in a public school, she refused, so I took matters into my own hands. A fellow student, in a stroke of brilliance, told me to look at the school handbook for ways to get expelled. We both checked it out, and found out that bringing tobacco products to school was all it took. So I grabbed some cigarettes and brought them into the locker room the next day. I brought out the cigarettes and showed them to some friends and they hurried up and ran down to the office to tell them. I was expelled, but only for a year. Fortunately my mom left the church a while later and I finally went to public school.
Oh, and as far as all of those friends of mine that I played with since I could walk? They never talked to me again (a few did a decade later). A youth group meeting was dedicated to damning me and another kid as "bad apples," when I left the church and school, and each and every one of them completely shunned me.
As far as the church goes, I feel like so much has already been said that if someone still wants to go there, then they deserve what they get, so I'll just let it be. There were some decent human beings there, not everyone was horrible, but the leadership really do strike me as monsters of a certain sort.
But, just to say something irrelevant and upbeat: One of the James' sons was a drummer, and he would play sometimes at church in the band. He was a freaking AWESOME drummer. His drumming was about the only thing I can remember fondly. So, much respect dude. You did something good.
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Doesn't Recommend
yakko B.
over a year ago
It’ll take a moment to read, but it does have to do with what the heart of the issue is in Lakeview.
If you go back in history, all the way to the early church or even further, Christ preached salvation and spreading the Word and the Kingdom of God, and He never stayed in one place for long. Always on the move, always preaching, always spreading the Word and wherever He went people gathered to listen and to praise God with Him.
As we go back, we see that Jesus was lifted on to the heavens and one of His final words to his followers was to continue spreading the word and not be grouped together in Jerusalem for long. What did they do? They gathered and formed the first church, particularly Jesus’ brothers who up until that point didn’t really believe Him - still they did not spread the word but wanted to stay all in one place. God saw this and Paul (Saul) at the time was raised by God and he spread the Word to the gentiles.
Fast forward to the Catholic Church. They dominated the world as history teaches us. They gathered and gather becoming corrupt in the Way, and eventually Martin Luther rose with the protestant movement to continue spreading the Word and salvation, and as most of us know they considered condemned by the Catholic church as rebels and heretics.
Lakeview, a non-denominational church also derived from the protestant movement throughout history, but they have made the same mistake.
They at first spread the Word and were content and blessed by spreading what is known as “the Good News”, they preached salvation. Sadly after a while they also gathered and gather power and more power, at their height they controlled or attempted to control churches in the UK, Japan, Jamaica, South Africa, Brazil, and several places with the USA, such as Hawaii, Alabama, Cleaveland, Columbus and in Maine.
They made the same mistake as the first church, they gathered and gathered rather than staying true to the Word of Christ of going out and preaching Salvation.
This means that they turned from Christ's path a long time ago and have followed their own ways, and those ways have been to try and maintain an association of followers through manipulation, fear and sometime even punishment…. Sounds similar to what the Catholic church used to do??? Very much so.
It’s because of this that they shun, that they obey without questioning, and they defend the way they are as the last holy place on earth.
The END is near they say, and so it is, Christ himself said the end was near when He was lifted to heaven, but anyone who reads the bible will see that we aren’t there yet, and that God calls all time soon.
Again, Lakeview’s issues is that they became a central power, and what do people with power want…? More power, this is the reason they have ruined lives, in the US and have tried to breakup lives overseas.
Christ preaches salvation, Lakeview went from preaching salvation to preaching damnation. That is why they now act, under their leadership, like a cult.
This is history repeating itself.
ps.: i could say many hateful things they have done. But that's not the point of this thread. I would, however, caution you against them, since hurt many many people, and that includes ideological persecution.
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Sherry C.
over a year ago
I had a friend that started going to this church, we were invited there and I noticed right way something wasn't right. We were looked down upon because of the type of clothing we wore. The people didn't speak to us or make friendly overtures, they just stared in distaste at us. Of course my friend didn't see this. Even the pastor didn't make any advance to us until the friend brought him to us and then he didn't stick around long. Women and little girls wore dresses and skirts, men and boys wearing dress pants n shirt with a tie at a Wednesday evening get together?
After this event my friend didn't contact us for a week the she called and asked if we wanted to start going to her church......I told her no we were not made to feel at home there. A TRUE Christian church wouldn't look down on others they would be friendly even though they didn't know you making a person feel wanted there. So she hung up then later in the week she called to tell me that our friendship couldn't continue as we would bring her down and unless I wanted to go to church with her that would be it. I told her that if her church was making her do this that they weren't a TRUE Christian church. WE hung up and I never heard from her for over 10 years after this.
Suddenly out of the blue in Nov she contacted me when my husband and I were having financial troubles. She was taking a discipleship or something class then at the same church she left me for. Meanwhile my husband and I had found a great church we were happy with. I invited her to a Christmas party our church was doing and shocker she came. Then she invited me to her church again. I told he that her church made my husband and I feel unwanted and I didn't want to go into something like that when I found a church that accepts you for who you are not what you wear, drive or how much $ you make. She said ok but still keeps contacting me.... I invited her to Good Friday praise and she came with her daughter. Not sure if shes shopping for a new church or trying to convert me. I do not condone what her church preaches, that man is not a disciple of GOD if he doesn't treat people in LOVE!
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Beth S.
over a year ago
I was a member for nearly 35 years. My daughter did not attend one of the women's retreats and the senior pastor's wife questioned me about it. Then she told me in these exact words, " You need to cut her off. You are strong. You can do it." I asked the younger pastor's wife about it because I was so upset, and she agreed with her mother-in-law.
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Doesn't Recommend
Rachel L.
over a year ago
Wow. Poor Christian S, he is clearly delusional. Many former members of this shunning cult are God fearing, Jesus loving, truth seeking worshippers of the Father, merely looking to reunite with loved ones and family. His very post is contradictory. So sad. Merely confirms our view, thank you Christian.
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Doesn't Recommend
Name L.
over a year ago
http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2016/05/02/kdka-investigates-former-pastors-member-call-bridgeville-church-cult-like/
BOOM (mic drop)
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10 /29015
So....Christian S, your answer to my inquiry less than 24 hours ago is a resounding 'We don't care'?
If I were knock on your office door and ask these same questions, would you slam it in my face? Is that how you show God's Love?
Why, if I follow the SAME God, believe in the teachings of Christ, accepted the SAME Jesus as my personal savior, will you continue to shun?
4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 [a]bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
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Posted 10/28/15
Dear Christian S,
For approximately the last 18 months not once have you answered any question directed to you and/or your alter ego.
Instead of having a normal dialogue with educated adults, you chose to regurgitate the same post. Is this truly a mature Christian response?
99% of the negative reviews are from prior long standing members or association members. A few of us are even Ministry Training School graduates with all the tools to understand scripture as well as yourself (would we have been able to graduate from MTS if we hadn't?)
Yes, some posts have seemed to have an "attack the church" theme to them, but do you understand the depth of pain that was inflected upon some of us? From your lack of response to questioning.....I can only presume your answer is 'I don't care'.
Many of us still care about friends and family still attending LV and would love to be able to spend time with them. Would you Christian S be willing to facilitate this?
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Doesn't Recommend
Marni D.
over a year ago
Re: Are you reviewers actual Christians? – Dear Mom and Dad,
I have no other way of contacting you at this point. I love you both with all of my heart. I know that we haven't always seen eye to eye. I am sorry for being a disappointment to you but I had to chose between this church and freedom, and I chose freedom.
A long time ago, Black Sunday happened. And my family was on a seesaw of not knowing exactly where we stood with the church. I believe a lot of it was influenced by my relationships and choices. I know that my mom and dad blame me for a lot of things. At any rate, my father, who I find to be a reasonable man of integrity came to the conclusion that as a church, we should not take on the offenses of others. I believe with all of my heart that my Dad meant this with every ounce of integrity and faith in the Lord known to man.
However, Dad, I do very much not understand how you are reluctant to take on the offenses of members who are on the fence, or who have left. But you are so quick to defend the leadership of your church. It was preached to me on several occasions when I was a member of your church that part of the reason that the shunning took place was because the leadership's feelings were hurt when people left. And to me, they did not seem willing to entertain questions or anything seen in opposition to their practice as believers.
As a child, I had a lot of questions. And as I grew up, even more questions arose. It has always stuck with me how I was punished and ostracized for asking those questions rather than just obeying. And it stuck with me that people who had questions were not shown empathy, compassion, or understanding but they were told to be quiet and if their faith were stronger, they wouldn't be asking those things.
I am sorry that I am not the daughter you wished I would be. But I cannot apologize for who I am. I hope that your devotion to this church and to God brings you all of the blessings you deserve. And if it doesn't, please know that I believe you deserve more and my arms and love are always open to you.
I love you very much and I miss you,
Marni
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Doesn't Recommend
KatieQue A.
over a year ago
It was good to see that this church finally created a website. It shows they are in fact responsive to external pressures. This is obviously a response to either/ both Lakeview's Web Presence (filled only with the experiences of those who have lost family and friends due to this church) but it's as much likely because of the looming expose.
But they have to know it's a largely futile gesture. Once this TV situation comes together, no one will ever join this church again. A simple google search will reveal the depths of toxicity involved in Lakeview, an experience to which people in this day and age simply will not subject themselves.
Sadly it doesn't have to be this way. There IS a response that actually changes the conversation. This could all be over, and this church could emerge as a healthy, viable part of the body of Christ. But they won't do it. This is the danger of entrenchment. There is simply no way this church, its pastor and people, could now go back to their sons and daughters, their estranged parents and say: "We repent. Forgive us. We would like to re-establish a relationship with you, in your time and at your convenience."
This degree of humility and circumspection is now long out of the reach of these people. Which is ironic, considering the ostensible role of the Holy Spirit as the chief "convicter." Simply put, the Holy Spirit's work is not CHIEFLY shown through signs and wonders. All of the testimonials "the HS's presence is always here" ring false when we never, ever see change.
It's almost too glorious to imagine. Lakeview could keep all of their beliefs. They could even continue to believe that THEY ALONE possess the clearest view of God, the truest doctrine, the most intimate presence of the Holy Spirit--they could still cling to all of these things, but they could shift their focus to--GASP--actually *sharing* this glory. They could relax their grip on their children, their families--their lives, and realize that full trust in Jesus and the power of a divine God means that, in the end, truth will win out. This would mean that members, parents, kids, would and could come and go freely. Every member in that church would be there on a purely voluntary basis.
And all of this pressure, Citysearch, the web and television exposes, would vanish. All of the "persecution" would be gone.
But in the end, this daydream is just that. This church could no more stop shunning than it could change leadership, change its fundamental beliefs. It's all inextricably woven in.
I remember working in the stock market in the early 2000s as the dot-com stock market was beginning to collapse. I remember a young man staring at the computer terminals watching the carnage. He said, "It HAS to turn around, I'm bought in to the hilt." In other words, he was so deeply embedded in the situation that all he had left was (horribly misguided) belief.
That's every Lakeview parent. Every adult still there has now invested so many years, all of their chips are so far out of reach in the center of the table, that they HAVE to be right. They HAVE to be exonerated by God for everything they've done. They HAVE to lean on their scriptures, their sheets of out-of-context verses they use to destroy families, to cut out their sons and daughters. They've long since passed the point of no return. It would take, in other words, a miracle to turn it around.
It's sad when you know there is no place for miracles at a church.
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Doesn't Recommend
Matt D.
over a year ago
I was an attender of the church in Columbus for 11 years and a student of the school. I would not recommend this church to anyone, but especially not to a young believer. My relationships with family members, that I still love dearly, have been severely compromised. Not by my choice. The way that this church is able to manipulate information and filter it is staggering and disappointing. Every other church in the community or the city at-large was either heretical and or was experiencing "less of God" than they were capable of experiencing. It is the very personification of elitist Christianity. Fortunately, I am in a church now where I am able to love and follow after Jesus. Where I am able to show kindness and compassion to those around me who are broken, just like I am. A place where I can have lunch with my pastor and express to him real doubts and concerns I have without being considered a rebel. "Leaving the church" was the unforgivable sin when I was growing up. Fortunately I left
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over a year ago
Was this review Helpful? Yes (25)
Recommends
Christian S.
over a year ago
I am a long-standing and current member of Lakeview Christian Life Church, and I have found that this church has been everything I need as a Christian. The Word of God is preached here with clarity and truth and power. The praise and worship is awe-inspiring and beautiful. The people are kind and loving. The pastors and elders of the church have shown us the way to life and have been caring and gracious. It is so rare that you can find so much of what you need in one local church - I thank God for it everyday.
Many of the recent reviews that have been posted on this website were NOT written by current members of the church and do not provide an accurate or truthful description of this church. They were not written to help people (though done under the guise to do so), but were written by people who cannot provide any adequate direction for Christians but can only cause division and strife and confusion. So many ex-members have taken to this website to express discontent and anger because they have seen treasured relationships with family and friends melt away as they have made life-altering decisions and said terrible things against the very Christians, doctrines, and teachings they once loved. They turned away from what they once possessed and held dear, and they want to tell themselves and everyone else that this church has caused this trouble in their lives, because that is much easier than admitting they willingly left and created the division and separation that now exists themselves. Jesus said in Matthew 10:34-39, "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me..." These are not easy words for a Christian to hear, but they are the truth and they have played out for those who cling to Jesus for 2000 years. But we love Jesus so much (not just a church or a set of teachings) that we are willing to lay it all down for His sake. And we have gained much more than we have lost - and we have not seen the end of what God will restore yet.
We are saddened to see the grave mistake these ex-members are making in that they have raised up a persecution against Lakeview Church, even though they have convinced themselves that their harsh and critical words are somehow done in service to the Lord Jesus. I would not dare to speak that way against any church - the Lord is Judge. You will know them by their fruits, and the fear of the Lord should be evident fruit in any believer, and especially in someone who considers themselves to be able to provide direction to others. Someone who fears the Lord will not speak against the Lord's church and attack its people. There can be no justification for it or excuse given that makes such actions rational or defensible. We all will stand before God someday and give an account for what we did and how we spoke, and the righteous take it to heart and walk circumspectly.
I count it an honor that the Lord has allowed me to be persecuted for the sake of knowing my Lord Jesus and serving Him. "Blessed are you when men cast insults at you, and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely, on account of Me..."
My 30+ years experience at Lakeview Church has been a wonderful and rewarding experience of love, sound teaching, and spiritual growth. I cannot attest to the experiences that the negative reviews have expressed - it has not been my experience. But that is to be expected, since my life has walked a very different path than those who have decided to depart. Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruits." (Matthew 7:16-20). Come to Lakeview Church and you will see the most beautiful fruit in peoples' lives and will hear the living Word of God preached.
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Doesn't Recommend
Lake V.
over a year ago
Christian S. - Try answering the question...instead of adding "fluff" - People are telling their STORIES...and you - are sadly, just trying to offer smoke and mirrors.
So...one more time Christian S. or any current members...Why don't you PLEASE TELL US WHY THE CHURCH SHUNS FORMER MEMBERS... DO YOU DENY IT?? Do you DENY THAT TEENAGE CHILDREN have been kicked out of their homes for not wanting to be in this church?? You are doing more nothing here than a poor job of trying to get your post bumped up...YOUR FORMER MEMBERS ARE PERSECUTED - not "poor you"!! You have not provided ANYTHING - no first hand accounts or anything...not one good reason for going to that church. YOU HAVE PROVIDED NOTHING BUT your KOOL-AID sipping perspective. Once again...another member skirting around the questions. DID YOU NOT READ THE POSTS?
FOR anyone else....
For those of you who have left...I am saddened to read your stories, but they are inspiring you had the STRENGTH to find the way that was right for you.
I am interested in hearing about more real life experiences from this church. Can someone please explain to me what REALLY drove you to leave the church - I see a few very brief posts about shunning, brainwashing, and the pain families went through, but I would like to hear some real stories. Please keep them anonymous!
I get lost reading these long winded posts regarding scriptures. The Scripture or the Word of God shouldn't ever be used to fight it out online. God's language should be universal and one of love.
It appears there has been so much heartache and families torn apart by THIS "church". I am surprised this church (cult) has not tried to do more of an image clean up - but I see it has it's minions here trying to do defense. What church would need such a defense? No church should ever have such heartache from its members at its foundation. No House of God should be built on families being torn apart and on its member’s fears.
I can start with what I DO know - I DO NOT RECOMMEND this church. I DO KNOW people in this church. I DO KNOW people trying to leave this church NOW. I DO KNOW they are SCARED TO LEAVE. They have been told they will lose their entire families should they leave the church and they will go to hell. I know several members who have left and have been harassed by former members. I know one member who left the church and their spouse divorced them for wanting to leave the church. I KNOW children of members who have left this church and the parents were forced to disown their own children!
Obviously....if I know a few people in this situation - I am sure there are MORE!!
Would Church members deny this treatment of members??
GOD IS LOVE...is God's Love at this church??
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Christian A.
over a year ago
I grew up in this church and school. It is much like organized crime, with an authoritarian godfather who rules through fear surrounded by lieutenants who strong-arm the people. Like so many, I was shunned by my family when I left because the leader told them I had left God's kingdom. The bad fruit of this cult is a legacy of lies and broken families. Their reviews are dodging, lies and twisted Scripture. I'm in a good church now, but I pray this group will not hurt more unsuspecting people in the community. Shame on the men who have supported this group, covered up the sin and turned a blind eye for so many years.
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Shunned 1.
over a year ago
I used to attend this church.
Now I attend another church.
So I am going to hell.
The members of Lakeview Christian Life Church believe that I am going to hell. And all because I left this church.
It's that simple. But try to pin them down and they will dodge the issue. They will give you countless reasons, all relating to your choices or walk with Jesus, but it's all nonsense.
Make them say it, if you can. Make them say you're going to hell. They'll bob and weave and throw up a lot of nonsense, but they believe it quite clearly. And to each other, behind closed doors, they affirm it very strongly.
They'll say, like our friend "Christian" says below, that "God sorts everything out, I would never speak against another church"--all of this. Be warned that this is a lie. Lakeview Christian Life Church, it's leaders--Pastor James, Pastor Otis, even their youth teachers--ain't waiting for ANYTHING to be sorted by God.
You leave? You are shunned (so much for God sorting).
You commit one of the numerous sins they believe is intolerable? You're out of the directory, school yearbook, and their hearts (guess they're not waiting for God to sort that out either).
No one who has sat through dozens, maybe hundreds of harshly judgmental sermons against other churches, former (and current) elders, pastors, and former members -- believes for a minute in "Christian's" laissez-faire assertion below.
They believe that in all the world there is one truly great church (ANTM churches included) and that they're in it. If you have been a member of this church and have moved on, left, been kicked out, whatever: that you are damned.
This has shifted over the years. 20 years ago they might sugarcoat it, Becky James told people that those who left "lost their reward."
They've stopped playing that middling game now.
My understanding is that, if you've always been in another non-affiliated church you've probably got a chance at a lesser place in heaven. But: to have sat in Lakeview Christian Life Church and to seen and experienced the full glories of the Holy Spirit manifested here and then left? Oof. Better to have never been born probably.
NEVER YOU MIND the inconvenient scriptures about how the manifestations we see at Lakeview : all the tongues, signs and wonders, mean nothing in the absence of love. NEVER YOU MIND that in the last day people will approach Jesus and say, "We've cast out demons and prophesied and performed miracles" and because their hearts were far off, He will tell them to take a hike.
For Lakeview to grapple with these scriptures would require great courage. And to have great courage would necessitate having honesty. And as you've found if you've ever tried to pin them down, honesty, unlike the spiritual gifts which are their calling card, is a virtue not in great abundance in Lakeview Christian Life Church.
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Recommends
Grateful C.
over a year ago
I would recommend this church to everyone, and I have the basis to make this statement as a long-standing member of the church. The presence of God is here when the saints gather, the preaching is sound and life-changing, and the people demonstrate the love of Christ in such a beautiful way. Anyone seeking a good home church will find what they are looking for here at Lakeview Church.
For those who have been unfortunate enough to have read any of the curiously negative reviews that some non-members have posted on this website, I do apologize for the confusion it has created. They post defamatory words about this wonderful church like they are reviewing a bad meal they had at a restaurant. How can someone who is no longer a member provide a relevant or meaningful description of the church? Their lack of current membership is an obvious clue that they preferred another "religious" experience, and their comments are heavily weighted in favor of justifying their position. How easy it is to use words to cast doubt in other people's minds. The people of Jesus day did the same thing:
16 “But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children, 17 and say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.’ 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon!’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.” - Matthew 11:16-19
So we do not engage in some war of words or banter about with persuasive arguments, using these random webpages as a platform for doctrinal discussions or apologetics. Our message and our preaching are not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power (I Corinthians 2:4). "Wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."
The preaching and the teaching I have received here are sound and life-giving and without reproach. There is a wealth of good preaching that comes from pastors whose lives are given to the caring and instructive care of the sheep. I have been a wonderful recipient of years of this care. I wish that every Christian could have these same benefits that I have enjoyed for so many years.
If Lakeview Church were not of God, it would have come to nothing a long time ago with or without human intervention. However, if the people of LCLC and the word that is preached there and the demonstration of the Spirit - if these these things are from God and not from men, then men and women will not be able to overthrow it but will find themselves fighting against God. (See Acts 5:33-39.)
"For if I do wish to boast I will not be foolish, for I will be speaking the truth; but I refrain from this, so that no one will credit me with more than he sees in me or hears from me." - II Corinthians 12:6
It would be easy to use words to defend ourselves, but we do not content ourselves with words. You can come to LCLC and see in us the things that are befitting of a people serving God. And you will also hear things that make you say, "Surely God is among them."
We rejoice in all who are led to the true knowledge of God our Savior, and if that path leads you to Lakeview Christian Life Church we will be glad to share in the new life you have received from Jesus.
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Doesn't Recommend
Beenther e.
over a year ago
I, as well as most of these reviewers, have firsthand experience as former (and even some current) members. We do not wish to slander or deceive. We only wish to expose and hopefully spare anyone from the harm and destruction that goes on within Lakeview and its associated churches. In my opinion, any goodness within this association is negated by the wake of destruction left behind.
These same people, who will welcome you with a smile and outstretched arms into the fold, will readily turn their backs on you. The people may indeed appear kind and loving...but don't cross them! Don't dare question their doctrine, their directives, their "authorities." All love, all relationships, including family relationships, are conditional. Conditional on the unquestioning, unwavering loyalty towards the leadership. Without that, they will readily toss anyone to the curb.
How many families are broken? How many have cut ties with parents and grandparents? How many mothers and fathers have cut ties with their children? How many brothers and sisters are disowned? When the majority of families are effected in some way by shunning, what does that say about a place? The shunning (i.e. "disfellowship") is severe. Severe enough for a mother to turn her back on her children simply because they decide to attend a different church or forge their own path, as children do when they become adults. If you are involved, or thinking about becoming involved in this association, please be aware of what may be expected from you some day.
Are you willing to turn your back on your son if he leaves the fold? If you refuse, are you willing to lose your status as a member in good standing, and be ostracized yourself? Are you willing to have your home called "a place of darkness" because you refuse to cut off your son? Are you willing to have your young children ostracized if they still have a relationship with their brother? Are you willing to have to make the choice to leave, and possibly have your adult daughter stay within the fold, only to be expected to cut ties with you? Are you willing to choose between your children? Are you willing to be backed into a corner, sacrificing at least one child no matter what choice you make? Are you willing to put yourself into this impossible situation?
It doesn't matter if Jesus tells his "true believers" to be a light, love your neighbors and your enemies, love the unloveable, seek and save the lost, search for the lost sheep, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, comfort the hurting, live without fear. These things are "overrated" in the minds of the leaders at Lakeview. At least that's what we were told when were faced with the situation I described above. This is not slander. This is not deception. This is the truth of our experience.
We finally, after nearly 20 years, decided enough was enough. Thankfully, our family got out intact. Most do not.
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Doesn't Recommend
Flynn R.
over a year ago
"If Lakeview Church were not of God, it would have come to nothing a long time ago with or without human intervention. "
Grateful, let's talk about this, while we're in our bump war. Why is this true? What possible reason can a Laker have for making this assertion?
Personally I think it's linked to their Leadership Theology which is deeply steeped in Old Testament teaching. They start with this: "Don't touch God's anointed"--it's a valid scripture, surely, but it refers to the Kings of Israel. A few kings were decent, but overall, at their hand Israel endured no end of misery. David however, was convicted about not messing with Saul and so he didn't. In due course God rewarded him for his faith.
But it's a leap to go from an Old Testament Hebrew King who was "God's anointed"--that is, Saul was literally anointed, at God's command, by the prophet Samuel--to using the same principle for a New Testament pastor. That is, we are saying that David not killing Saul or even touching him, is the equivalent of not saying negative things about a pastor. A pastor is a leader of New Testament priests, all of us 100% responsible for our own walks. This is the next step in LCLC's Leadership Theology. They diminish our God-given (and Jesus-bought) role as NT priests in order to assert the primacy, the dominance and responsibility of the Leadership. They believe that if you are obedient to church leadership, even if the Pastor is wrong, you will be protected. This is called magical thinking. It is unwise, it is unscriptural, it is foolish. And it is wrong both spiritually and practically.
If a Lakeview pastor told you to tithe 100% tomorrow--that would be crippling financially and there is no guarantee of spiritual reward from following blindly. God is under no obligation to, if you will, "rescue you" from your foolishness. Again: if a Lakeview pastor told you to cut off your children because they were walking apart from God, you would be bringing shame upon The Name for possibly generations, as well as ruining your relationship with your children (or parents) possibly irreparably. This is an example that, of course, happens.
Which brings us back to this church, and the assertion that this church's continued existence is proof that it is "of God." It is profoundly obvious that many things that are not "of God" don't crumble--they go on and on in this crazy, broken, infuriating world. They do not all "come to nothing." Were this remotely true, using Lakeview rules, this church should literally be the last thing standing. Quick example: the Catholic Church has not "come to nothing," nor any other branches of Christianity out of step with the True Doctrine.
Per scripture and our experience, yes, things are judged in due course, but many good and evil things will last until the end times, to be judged in fullness at that point (tares and wheat). Thus this assertion--that Lakeview MUST be of God or it would not have "stood" these 50 years--it holds no water.
(PS, that said, what does "come to nothing" mean to you? Half the original strength of this church gone, down to 3 churches from the 8 or more, and nearly every family is down a member or 4, having "lost (shunning" those left the walk? If that's not "nothing" it's certainly "reeling." This is a church that is in free-fall.)
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Doesn't Recommend
Grateful C.
over a year ago
I would not recommend this church to anyone, and I have the basis to make this statement as a long-standing member of the church. The presence of God is not really here because the preaching is so terribly unsound that the people aren’t allowed to demonstrate the love of Christ in any way. Anyone seeking a good home church will not find what they are looking for here at Lakeview Church.
For those who have been fortunate enough to have read the curiously negative reviews that some former members have posted on this website, I do apologize for the confusion that I have created. How necessary it is for them to warn others in their enlightenment to cast doubt in our member’s minds. Jesus warned the people about the religious leaders of His day in a similar way:
But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children, and say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.’ For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon!’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.” - Matthew 11:16-19
So we do not engage in some war of words or banter about with persuasive arguments. Our message and our preaching are not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power (I Corinthians 2:4). "Wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."
Lakeview Church is not of God. It’s preaching had come to nothing a long time ago because of a false apostle’s intervention. Since the people of LCLC and the word that is preached there is not the demonstration of the Spirit - then these things truly are not from God, but from men. As a result, though men and women at Lakeview will not be able to overthrow the Kingdom, they will find themselves fighting against God. (See Acts 5:33-39.)
"For if I do wish to boast I will not be foolish, for I will be speaking the truth; but I refrain from this, so that no one will credit me with more than he sees in me or hears from me." - II Corinthians 12:6
Our doctrine is so warped that It is not easy to use words to defend ourselves, so we do not content ourselves with words. May you visit another church to see in them the things that are befitting of a people serving God. May you hear things elsewhere that will make you say, "Surely God is among them."
If we understood the reality of the true Kingdom of God, we would rejoice in all who are led to the true knowledge of God our Savior. That path will not lead you to Lakeview Christian Life Church, so be glad to share in the new life you received in Jesus in a church that doesn’t warp the truth of the Holy Bible.
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Doesn't Recommend
Rhymestone Cowbo Y.
over a year ago
FALSE DOCTRINE AT LAKEVIEW
There is an “apostle” at Lakeview
Whose pleas for your money would make you
Supply him his fund--
Or else you’ll be shunned;
For out of his “church” he would take you.
*****
The doctrine at Lakeview is hazy.
The pastor’s exposits are lazy.
His sermons are skewed--
His message untrue.
This man: a true brother? That’s crazy!
*****
You think this a frivolous verse?
Your spouse he may have you divorce!
If outside his will
Your spirit he’ll kill
You’ll be thrown in the street with his curse!
*****
With stories so commonly true--
(They number a hundred or two-)!
It isn’t your fault
This place is a cult.
Just get out. FORGIVE HIM—don’t sue.
***** ***** ***** ***** *****
ENCOURAGING BIBLICAL TRUTH
Of the numerous posts
That are written herein,
What bothers me most
Is the dangerous spin
Of the claims that the leaders’ unquestioning right
Is to separate fam’lies and put folks to flight!
*****
Most things have been said
There’s not much that’s new--
I hope we’ve ALL read
Co-los-si-ans, Two.
For those who have left, our confusion was such
That some of our doctrine is STILL out of touch.
*****
Somehow in this mess
Against doctrines untrue,
I need to confess
That I have erred, too,
With pointed assertions and cutting remarks,
I’ve answered your shunning with plenty of sparks.
*****
We see through a mirror--
It’s dark, but Christ sees us.
We must persevere
And focus on Jesus--
To demonstrate love, and encourage our brother.
That’s how you will know us: We love one another!
*****
Let’s not be absurd.
Your church, do not smother;
Just go to the Word
And exhort one another--
To live out the Gospel; Our faith, let’s renew,
And preach only Truth on both sides of Lakeview.
***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****
POSTSCRIPT: Norman, Chris, I would love nothing more than to hear that you've changed your course, that you have repented of your manipulating quest for control, and begun to preach un-skewed, sound, BIBLICAL Truth. JUST PREACH THE WORD IN CONTEXT and with a measure of understanding!! May God extend His grace to you that you may know the Truth, that the Truth would set you--and your congregation--free. Then, I can remove these pathetic verses from this review!!
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Doesn't Recommend
25 Words or L.
over a year ago
I believe that Lakeview's tragedy is the result of distorted pneumatology through which leaders manipulate the congregation for personal gain at members' expense.
Fear 4U: AMEN. And leaders, when you preach, pay attention to context: grammatical, historical, and in light of the whole Bible. CONTEXT MATTERS!!!
1 Thessalonians 5:22 commands us to “Abstain from [Greek: “shun”] every form of evil.” Please do not shun one another. Shun evil teaching.
IF LAKEVIEW IS THE ONLY CHURCH THAT'S GOT IT RIGHT, WHY DO YOU USE PRAISE SONGS AND CHORUSES FROM OTHER (LOST??) PROFESSING CHRISTIANS?
Congregation: Your best defense against bad preaching is to learn the Word of God better than your pastor. Learn the CORRECT applications.
Beloved, faith is eroded by doubt. Doubt the prophet when his word is unfulfilled—but not the Savior whose grace grants saving faith.
Where does God’s Word justify divorce because one partner “disagrees with the pastor?” 1Co 7:16 indicates otherwise. Pastor, be careful to counsel with correctly applied scripture.
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John G.
over a year ago
Apparently a few current Lakeview members read this forum, and those are the people I would like to address in the hope they would "see the light."
Lakeview professes to be Christian They use words such as love, forgiveness, and grace, yet have little knowledge of what they really mean. According to Lakeview, God changes after we become Christians. They believe that we were born sinners and need Jesus. Yet they think that after we are saved, God changes from a loving Father to a judgmental god waiting for us to screw up one more time so he can squash us like a bug. Newsflash. We will ALWAYS screw up one more time. It is in our DNA. The only way God will give up on us is if we knowingly and willingly reject Him by grieving of the Holy Spirit, an intentional, ongoing denial of the Holy Spirit and its work in our lives. And even then, God does not cut us off, it is us cutting ourselves off from God.There are precious few people who fall into this category. If we really want to serve God, then this is not even an issue.
God knew exactly what we would be like even before we were born, yet chose to love us anyway. God loves us and accepts us EXACTLY as we are. This is a very hard concept for us to wrap our minds around, yet it is at the very core of our Christian experience, or at least it should be. You need to find the real God of the Bible, not the distorted one that Lakeview puts forth. And it is up to God to change us, our part is to let Him do it.
Lakeview (and every other church) should be like a Christian hospital for the hurting. Yet it is more like a hospital which pushes the most badly injured out the back door, keeping only the ones who are able to cure themselves. You as an average member of Lakeview have no idea what really goes on. You have only the leaders' version of what happened to ex-members. No one left at Lakeview knows the other person's side. What's more, no one is safe from their wrath.
Lakeview has dozens of negative reviews on this site, but not one positive review from any former member. I challenge you to find another church in the Pgh area with such negative press. As we former members write this stuff, it is only to save others from the heartache we have endured. Do you really think we are all creative enough to make this stuff up?
My wife and I were long-time members there, and leaving Lakeview was probably the hardest thing we have ever done. For a while we doubted whether God would approve, but we finally decided we could not put our family through any more of this. We lost all of our friends and half of my family, but God met us every step of the way. And we found the love, joy, and freedom in Christ that was missing at Lakeview.
I need to be praying against the system at Lakeview that destroys lives,
and I need to pray for its members, its leadership, and yes, even Norman, Sr. We are all sinners saved by the boundless grace of God, and He will not be finished with any of us until we draw our final breath on this earth.
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